Road to Boston

Welcome to the blog!

At this point I would recommend base mileage, speed work does not help in the marathon until you are comfortably running at least 10 miles a day. Because you would hit other limiting factors before you are able to use what you've developed in the speed sessions. Also because without proper aerobic base you will not be able to push the body adequately to develop the speed in the speed sessions, unless you cut down the number of intervals and increase the rest.

So run as far as you can at a comfortable pace so that 24 hours later you can do it again day after day 6 days a week. Will probably be around 6 miles, but listen to your body on that. A little longer if you feel inclined before your rest day.

Thank you so much for visiting my blog. So let me make sure I understand your recommendation (which I take very seriously after looking at your running expertise!). You are saying don't bother with speedwork at all until I can basically run at least 60 miles per week (10 miles per day)? Is that correct? I do think I have a pretty good aerobic base from doing triathlon for the past five years, but I think you are saying that I'm better off spending my time getting a whole lot more mileage under my belt earlier in my training -- as opposed to the traditional single long run each week . . .

Thanks again for taking the time to offer assistance! I definitely want to take the road that will get me to Boston ;).

Anita - correct, learn to run 60 miles a week before you worry about speed. With the triathlon preparation some aspects of the aerobic base carry over and others do not. The heart and the lungs will be strong. However, the running muscle fibers will not be conditioned properly. Plus there is more to the aerobic base training than just using oxygen better. You are learning how to run efficiently and without injuries. So even then, I would still apply the same idea - gradually build up to 10 miles a day of easy running, and do a time trial or a 5-10 K race once in a while to see if you are on the right track.

If you are going from running 20-30 miles a week to 60 of base mileage, and everything is going right, no health issues, you normally see big improvements in all distances 5 K and up, and they come rather quickly. We have a large number of bloggers that have tried this approach with success, here is a couple of blogs you can study:

http://redsokx.fastrunningblog.com/

Check his 2008 training. He ended up running 3:10:30 in Bay State marathon entering it with a PR of 4:14 set only a few months earlier.

http://cocarolyn.fastrunningblog.com/

She went from running 2:07 half to 3:45 full marathon. It was rather interesting to watch her entering a Moab half in March not realizing how fast she was with a secret wish to break 2:00, then running a 1:49, and then nearly doubling that in her marathon 2 months later.

The blog PR in improvement belongs to Jeff Necessary

http://spiderpig.fastrunningblog.com/

who went from 4:46 to 3:33

Cody Draper is a close second improving from 3:44 to 2:38:

http://cody.fastrunningblog.com/

Those improvements, as well as many others, are based on a very simple, almost self-evident idea. We take the runner's natural speed and train him to use it for the whole 26 miles by building endurance. Amazingly, it is not uncommon to see a 1 hour improvement when you start racing a marathon rather than just surviving it.

Have you ever raced a 5 or 10 K, if yes, what is your best time? If not, it would be a good idea to race one or run a time trial to see what kind of speed you have.

Welcome to the blog Anita.

Sasha - I plan on taking that title away from SpiderPig someday.

Welcome to the blog Anita. Great job on those Yasso 800s. I have heard about them and have yet to try it out. I do know there is a different between running on the track and treadmill. I am just hitting the track more myself and finding it much harder to hit my splits like I would like to. And know on the treadmill I could. Because its easier to just cruise along then going out to fast which I seem to be doing.

Burt - if you wait a year, you'll have a shot at a 2 hour improvement. How about a goal to improve your marathon time by more than it takes Haile to run it (2:03:59)? This will make it hard for others to take it from you. It might even be in the world record range - they close the course at 6:00 so your competition would have to run at least sub-4:00 the next time around to beat you. Right now I think you'll run around 3:40, which still earns the title, but it will not be so cool.

You do have to take into account that it was a very slow time to begin with. I know I gave it my all and did try to follow a training program. I weighed about 20 lbs heavier and was not used to running in altitude or downhill that long. My previous high mileage was only a handful of 17 and 15 mile runs. The point is, anyone can go out and run a 6 hour marathon, then run a 3:40 on their next one. So is a 2:20 difference from a 6:00 to a 3:40 cooler than a 1:06 difference from a 3:44 to a 2:38? Maybe. Only because I know I was trying my best. (Sorry for rambling on your blog Anita.)

Oh ramble away!!!

I am wondering if there is a plan out there somewhere that will take me safely from my 30-35 miles per week to 60 miles per week over the course of the next 15 weeks . . .??? I'm great at following a plan. Not sure I'm too great at making them.

Also, is trail running okay as part of the mix. I love it, and I'm thinking that 60 miles is a lot of pounding . . .

Also, should some of the miles be at the pace I want to run the marathon? Or are these all easy miles? I thought I was all good following Hal Higdon's plan, and now it sounds like I need a "PLAN B"

Sasha - - Thanks for all the proof points. I will definitely check out those blogs.

Huans32 - Thanks for the warm welcome!!! I think you are right about the treadmill vs. the track - - which is why I'm anxious to get out on the track. But I do have my Garmin which really helps with pacing no matter where I'm running. Otherwise I'm like you - - start off too fast!!

Burt - Thanks so much for stopping in and saying hi!!!

Anita:

I am a big advocate of "Listen To Your Body" plan. It is very simple. You ask yourself what would the longest distance you could safely handle at a comfortable pace and recover from in 24 hours so you could feel as good before the start of your next run as when you started your run the day before. I suppose for you it would be around 6 miles. So you run do that every day with one day of rest. Maybe a little longer before your day of rest, let's say 8-10 miles. Do that for two or three weeks. If everything feels good, make 7 miles your minimum, and add a couple of miles to your long run. Give it another two or three weeks. Then up it to 8, then 9, then 10.

It is very important to listen to your body. If it says the mileage is too much, then back off to a safe level, and try again in a few weeks to see if maybe your body is ready.

Trail running is a good idea, especially if you like it and you are concerned about asphalt pounding. The pace should be comfortable. Do not force it. Monitor it for fun, and to get an idea of how you are progressing, but let your body choose the pace. When in doubt go slower during this phase.

Burt - cooler or not, I do not know. But I do know you can run 3:15 once some weight comes off, the aerobic fitness increases, and some of the wiring that gave you a sub-5:00 mile at one point gets rebuilt and reconnected. You are rather unique in the sense of having the ability to get unconditioned, and you are lucky to have taken a snapshot of that unconditioned state with a 5:18 marathon. This gives you a special opportunity to PR by a lot, a world-record level margin. Aside from bragging rights, this accomplishment will give the masses of 5:18 marathoners an idea that maybe deep down they might have a 3:15 in them, which I think has the potential of starting some sort of an improvement revolution. It would result not only in faster times, but a different mindset, and eventually a healthier country, physically and mentally.

Ok, so let's say I start doing this tomorrow. There's 15 weeks left until my marathon. So if I'm upping the mileage every two - three weeks, by the time of the marathon, I'd be up to about 10 miles per day with one longer run of 15 miles or so by the time of the marathon. Is that enough? Or do I need to accelerate that longer run somehow faster? I must say the whole thing is tremendously appealing as I much prefer running long and slow . . .but I'm just worried about whether the speed will come and also, don't I need a few 20 milers in there?? Thanks so much for taking the time to share your philosophy.

Anita- you will want to modify your training to emphasize the long run. Going into your first marathon with a long run of only 15 miles is asking for trouble. If there is a way to build up your long run so you get at least 1-3 runs of 20-22 miles, I would do that, even if it means you don't run 10 miles everyday. For example, maybe do a shorter 5-6 mile run Friday, and a longer run Saturday.

Anita - I agree with Jon. The long run can be pushed to 20 if you are running 8 a day consistently. Also, you can do something like this - 6,6 feel really good, try 8, still good, 8 again, back down to 6 just in case, next week try all 8s to build the mileage a bit faster. The numbers I am giving are not exact, and you do not have to hit them perfectly. Listen to your body feedback. If it says more is safe, go more. If you feel tender spots in muscles and bones, or overall fatigued and it does not go away mid-run, cut down and recover.

A quote from Renato Canova, an Italian world-class coach, paraphrasing, if you have a 100 day plan, after 10 days you are not on day 10 of a 100 day plan, you are on day 1 of a 90 day plan.

Hi, Anita! Welcome to the blog. I've learned a lot of good stuff just reading Sasha's comments to you. I'm sorta new to this blog myself. I would completely agree with the comments about speed training; I've never trained for speed before, just started, and I really think its good advice to wait until you've accomplished the mileage first. Right now, my workouts have focused more on speed and strength and less on miles, which is frustrating because I'm used to more miles, but I am hopeful about the outcome.

Jon - Thanks for your input! The good news is this is my second marathon, plus I've done a half Iron triathlon which is a sustained cardiac effort for over 6 hours. Nonetheless, I'm still in GREAT need of this advice because when I did the first marathon, I used a beginning training program and simply had the goal of finishing. I actually felt like I ran that marathon too slow because I felt like I still had quite a bit "in the tank" at the end. I think a very realistic pace for me would be 9:20 min/mi, but I really want to do 8:45 min/mi. So the question is how do I get from point A to point B. I thought speedwork was the way, but given Sasha's background and experience, I'm quite tempted to give his philosophy a shot. I appreciate you chiming in on my question because 15 miles sounded short to me!!

Sasha - GOT IT!!! Ok, I'm going to give it a try. My best guess is that I could start with 7's because I trained hard over the winter and only recently "let up" to do incorporate speedwork starting in April. But to be on the safe side, I'll do what you suggest and do a week of sixes and then start incorporating longer and longer runs into the mix. With one long run each week. Thanks for the advice. I really hope it works for me!!

Auntieem - Many thanks for the warm welcome!! It sounds like you now have the mileage going under your belt and have just started to incorporate the speedwork? I will check out your blog for sure to see how it is going. I'd love to know more about the transition and how it works for you and what races you are doing.

So you've done a marathon and a 1/2 Ironman? Wow. I second what Sasha says about running at least 60 miles/week before adding speedwork. That doesn't mean some days can't be a bit faster and some a bit slower (if you feel good one day, push it hard, and if not, go easier), but specific speedwork like 800m repeats will be more beneficial with higher mileage. Also, if running the same mileage everyday is monotonous, or you just want some variety, you can do something like 6 one day, 8 the next, then 7, 9, 6, long run. Something like that- a little variation is nice.

I hope you make your goals and qualify for Boston. Running through the Scream Tunnel at your alma mater is something you will never forget. Literally- I think it permanently damages your hearing ;)

Jon - Yes, I've been very focused on triathlon for the past four years, but honestly running is really my love. I.suck.at.swimming!!! Can't really state it any better than that. I enjoy cycling, but someone I know, a very experienced cyclist, just had a huge accident that left him on a ventilator and paralyzed at least temporarily. I'm not so sure about racing now. So for the time being, I am returning to my real love which is running. The problem is that in the past, I have been prone to injury as mileage increases . . .I think I have more all over strength now so I'm hopeful that maybe this time I can avoid it. We'll see.

Thank you for your good wishes on Boston! I know I will LOVE running Boston if I ever get there. I figure eventually the qualifying time will be slow enough for me to make it . . .but I'd love to do it in the next couple of years.

Yep, that's the way of rest days. I rested today, and even though I felt I really needed it, it was SO hard. Good luck with the new plan.

Thanks, auntieem!! I did feel very good today after resting . . .so maybe it is worthwhile.

that is not sad! that is an awesome pace! Great job getting out there in the rain!

Thanks so much, April! I wish I were a fast runner, but I'm tiny with short little legs so I need to work on it. Losing a few pounds would help too :). I appreciate the encouragement!!

Well I wish I could hold an 8:55 for 6 miles...NOT GONNA HAPPEN! LOL...well one day...maybe when the elements and the hills don't exist any more. LOL

Nice pace for your long run! I hate that, when psychologically you are done, then have to go more distance. It can make .7 miles seem really long. Sounds like you are being very consistent and racking up those miles!

Thank you so much, auntieem. I am definitely NOT going to underestimate my mileage again like that . . .lol. Next time I use mapmytri.com to map out my run, I'm making sure I stick an extra half mile in there. I'd rather have to walk home at the end than run past my street again. That's just more will power than I typically possess at the end of a long run.

Anita - the blog has its own course mapping tool. Log in and and click on the Course Tool link on your left. In addition to the distance it can give you mile splits for the even effort at a certain flat pace adjusted for the elevation profile of the course. E.g if you want 9:00 effort it will say run this uphill mile in 9:20, this downhill mile in 8:50, and this mile with rollers and no elevation drop in 9:10.

With the fatigue after the long run and the anxiety today it might be a good idea to rest the day after the long run.

It does make a lot of sense to rest the day after my long run. I'm going to try to do that whenever I can, but sometimes I find my schedule on Saturdays is so darn hectic - - so I'd like to use that day to rest - - while I normally prefer to do my long run on Thursdays. This week, I'm going to run long on Thursday and rest on Friday and see how that goes. It makes more sense for certain.

Sub-9:00 might be a bit too quick for your average run. After a day of rest you will feel feisty, so you will find the juice to run 8:20 pace. However, that juice will gradually disappear during the week. I would recommend slowing down for the majority of the run, especially the early miles, do not try to prove anything to yourself or test anything for most of the run, just stroll along and enjoy nature. If your horses are still neighing with 2 miles to go, do a mile in 8:20, and then break 8:00 in the last mile.

Or if the horses are still neighing uncontrollably at 9:20 pace half way into the run, run a mile under 8:00 to calm them down.

Such pickups allow you to test your fitness frequently in a non-invasive way. Meaning you do not run yourself into the ground during the test. They also help you learn to run fast. Although not that much at this point. I suspect what I would call "neurologically fast" for you is around 7:30, maybe even 7:00. However, because you do not yet have a solid aerobic base you cannot spend enough time in that zone to achieve improvements. But as your aerobic base improves, you will find yourself able to run at a much faster pace with a high degree of comfort.

I am wondering if perhaps your marathon potential is around 3:15.

Wow, that was a very perceptive comment, Sasha. So glad you are sharing your thoughts. Today was a total bust for me running wise - - and something tells me it is exactly for the reasons you are suggesting.

I SO SO appreciate the advice. I will slow it down a bit . . .today (July 1) was a learning experience in this regard as I really had a bad run. Tomorrow is my long run, and I'm a little worried about how that's going to go after today's.

It's really nice of you to share the benefit of your experience.

Believe me, if I follow your advice and hit the pace I need to qualify for Boston (which is 3:50), I will be beside myself with happiness. Anything faster than that will be total icing on the cake.

I am with you about the DREADMILL! It feels like torture! All of the stresses that waif away while running outside, bounce off of the ceiling and slam me back in the head. I hate it!

Great running this week :)

Sorry about your bummer training day! Still, you got on there and did five whole miles! On a treadmill! That is an accomplishment. Sometimes when I can't do all my miles in the am, I'll just go out and jog a few in the evening. Two a days! It sounds awful, but it actually makes you feel great!

Sounds like someone's preggo...

Don't listen to him.

Have I ever been wrong?

Definitely not pregnant. Thank goodness.

See, he's wrong.

Hmmm...that's never happened before.

You're right, we'd make a great running buddies! Let's get back to those 4:00 hour marathons shall we? There's a cute friend on the blog (Smooth) who is a 53 year old, 14 time Boston Marathon Veteran. He goal is to just keep her same pace over time. I'm all for that. I've gotten slower these days, but man, if it doesn't just get harder to keep a strong sub 9:00. You're luck you've got Mom's in Motion. That sounds like an awesome group of women!

That's great news! I don't know if I'm more impressed with your run, or the fact that you have a dog who will run that far! 9:30 is a great long run pace. That's supposed to be my "easy" pace.

My dog is amazing . . .lol. You'd be more amazed if you saw his size. He's only about 20 lbs. He's a cockapoo, and looks kinda foofy. Not the kind of athletic looking dog you might picture, but apparently cocker spaniels are amazing runners, and he's half that . . .he runs with me every day.

Wow, that'll be a lot of mileage. I guess you just need to maintain the state of being "systemically tired" to keep that great slow pace! I'll have to try that also; I also run the first mile or so way too fast. I have found on days when the workout the day before was hard or I did some other hard workout thing, the easy miles are easier to achieve.

I always have trouble keeping it slower! Yesterday was a recovery run, and I tried to imagine running in water, running with weights on my ankles, all kinds of tricks. By mile 3, I was able to achieve about 9:30. I think running easy miles easy is my biggest training challenge.

lol . . .well, I do have to laugh because running slowly has really NEVER been an issue before for me. I have been running plenty slow (10 min/mi plus) for YEARS. So I'm a little unclear as to why all of the sudden I am going faster than I should be . . .

I love your visualization ideas! I think I just need to tell myself it is okay to run slow. For some reason, because I know I need to hit a marathon pace of 8:50 mi/min, I feel a need to train close to that . . .but everyone's advice seems to say I don't need to. So I need to take the advice of the experienced folks!!

You might be getting more fit. If you find yourself recovering from sub-9:00 fine, then just keep running it. I would, however, do something like this on those "on" days. Warm up two-three miles at whatever pace is happening naturally. Then run a mile in 7:00 or faster. See if you can first of all, and second, see what pace you are naturally choosing after that effort. If you are going back to something close to what you started out with, it means you are more fit, and it is OK to run all of your mileage that fast. If not, it means you were superficially wired/wound up (sometimes the energy floats to the surface when it should not) , so you should slow down.

Sasha,

Thanks so much for the ongoing advice.

First, I must say that your idea of running the same, longer distance daily has been a godsend for me. My long runs seem so much more doable and easy when I'm doing these moderately long distances daily as opposed to doing mostly shorter runs. I know my endurance is much improved.

I haven't been feeling as "speedy" as of late. I think I had some stressful things going on that were making me run harder. So now, I feel more settled. But if it happens more, I'll give what you suggest a shot - - though I'm not even sure I CAN run a mile as fast as you suggest.

When you have a moment, can you please tell me what I should be doing once I reach the 60 miles per week mark? I'm very close now. I'm pretty worried that I won't have the speed I need if I don't at least try to run faster some of the time. Please advise!!

Anita:

The concept of "speed" is relative. E.g if all you want to do is run 3:40 marathon you have plenty of speed, failure to do so would come from the lack of endurance. If you want to run 3:10, then I do not know if you have the speed, you may, you may not, and in case you do not, then you would need to work on it. But speed is something that is very difficult to improve. Fortunately, endurance is not, so you can progress in the marathon a lot by working on endurance.

Once you get to 60 miles a week, get comfortable with this volume. Hold it for a while. Get used to it. Even after you get used to it, wait until you stop improving in the 5 K before you start to think about speed. No need to work harder if you are still improving off the current load. If you are improving, it means the current load provides adequate stimulus. If you increase it even more, it might be too much. Like when you are happy with the volume of your radio - if you turn the knob you might hear a little better, but chances are it will be just too loud. Once you stop improving you need an increase in training stimulus - either up the mileage or add speed work.

It is not surprising that you do not feel as hyper in your runs. When the volume increases, you do not feel as anxious to run fast, but you can once you put your mind to it. When I am out of shape, I get out of the house and want to run 6:40 pace. But I have a hard time holding 6:00. When I am in shape, I get out of the house and it takes me a mile before I want to run 8:00. Then it takes me another 3 miles before I want to run 7:00. But once I decide to go, I have no problem holding 5:30. I am not sure about the physiology behind it, but I see it as a good sign.

How are things going?

Also, what was the average pace in the 17 mile run?

Oh, I'm so sad. Right after the 17 mile run, I had a day off and then I did a 9 mile run. Unfortunately, I had this twinge in my hip that I've had once before. I still finished the 9 miler and didn't feel all that bad. But several years ago, I had a similar pain in the hip joint, and I think it was bursitis. The more I ran on it, the worse it got - - and I ended up having to quit running for months.

So this time, I didn't want to let it get that out of hand. So the next day I did a short run. Still hurt.

I tried again. The pain is worse so I stopped running for a week.

Tried a 3 mile trail run and that was okay. Did a 4 mile trail run that went okay. The next day, bad pain again.

So I took another week off and only did elliptical and cycling. I'm unclear why those don't hurt and only running does because they all utilize the hip. It's something about the pounding. When the leg joint pounds into the socket, the pain can be sharp.

Today, I tried another 3 mile trail run. I felt good with no pain at all, but definitely felt "out of shape" on the cardio front (guess the elliptical and bike don't really transfer).

I am SO BUMMED because I really loved running the longer distances during the week. I felt fabulous on the cardio side and felt like my endurance was improving a lot. My 17 mile run didn't feel hard at all (while I was doing it). Unfortunately, I do suspect the 17 miler was the culprit. It was raining so I think I ran harder than usual (9:20's). Also, I was travelling and the sides of the road were more cambered than I normally would run on - - this is exactly how I got injured several years ago -- running 18 miles on cambered roads. I just thought I was in better shape this go around.

So, I'm not really thinking a fall marathon is in the cards now. Honestly, I wonder if I just can't run as much as I want to on a weekly basis. But a part of me thinks maybe I tried to do too much too fast. Maybe if I built up more slowly over a longer period of time . . .sigh.

Sad to say but this is what ended up driving me to triathlon even though my heart is much, much more in running. I just didn't have the injury issues.

So sorry to blab on and on. I just loved your recommendations and had a taste of the results. Now I feel I'm back at square one.

I actually do have a sensitivity to skewed surfaces as well. One time I got a pinched nerve in the lower back this way. The cure was to take it easy and jog lower mileage at slower paces for a month.

It is encouraging that the pain went away for you after some rest.

In your situation I would keep cross-training and jogging to probe the recovery progress, and gradually increase the mileage based on the body feedback until you are back to normal. The fitness will come back fast. But it still may be a good idea to wait until later to run the marathon.

Also, for a precaution, slower pace most days is better than faster pace. Aerobic development still happens almost the same, but injury risk is a whole lot less.

How are things going?

Thanks so much for checking in on me! I am FINALLY back to normal. My conditioning is not great, but I'm running pain free so that's something. I had pain through mid September so I was able to do some running and fill in the gaps with the elliptical and the bike. For the past couple of weeks, I've been able to run more and more . . .but "more and more" hasn't been all that much - - about 25 miles per week.

I finally feel able to say I'm recovered, and am about to attempt to do some real training now. I'm planning on running 5 miles per day, five days per week plus one longer run. I'm going to creep up slowly this time and see if I can get back to where I was . . . and I'm going to run trails a lot more than I was.

5 miles a day is great. You will maintain decent shape if you are able to do that 6 days a week, especially if you add some cross-training on top of that. No hurry increasing the mileage. Probably the trouble you had came from getting too excited about feeling good and increasing the mileage too fast. The problem is that in order for the mileage increase to be safe all of the subsystems of the body need to be ready for it. Sometimes one particularly strong subsystem starts telling you it can handle more and outshouts the others that are whimpering that they are not ready. Thus we always wait a little longer to increase even if it appears that we can handle more.

This time hold the same mileage for at least three weeks before increasing it again. General rule of thumb is that if you are visiting the mileage territory where you have not been before you need to be a lot more cautious.

Thank you so much for the encouragement and great advice. I'm going to proceed much more slowly this time. I agree with your assessment that too much, too fast was not my best move. I was excited and part of me did feel really great ;). I think with the much colder weather, my enthusiasm will be a bit diminished naturally, and I'll feel more willing to build slowly. Sadly, right now, a daily five is seeming like a lot. It will take time to rebuild I guess . . .thanks again for taking an interest. Your advice is very helpful.

Hi, You sound like a lot better runner than I am, but I've started running again after a 4-5 month "running drought".

Do you still have your hip pain? A few years ago I had a lot of pain in my hip while (and after) running. (I'm not sure why it started - may have been a combination of running on too much of a camber, and running in a compensated fashion since I had a sore hamstring.) I rested a bit, then started running on a treadmill to remove the camber element. I also eased into a good stretching routine, and especially stretched the sides of my hips. So far, I've been lucky and the hip pain has stayed at bay (knock on wood).

In any event, good luck with your runing and hope you made it running into your 90's!